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Do you think it is appropiate for a puppy to be awarded WINNERS, BEST OF WINNERS, BEST OF OPPOSITE SEX OR BEST OF BREED when it is deserving of the award? [290 votes total]
 
YES (264) 91%
NO (26) 9%
 


 
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Posted By: Scot Billings

Posted On: 9 days ago
Views: 301
 
 
Class for winners

Regarding the statement "In the late 80's a rumor was buzzing around that AKC was implementing a new rule: A dog must be awarded its second major after a certian age to achieve a championship. I believe it was 18 months." it was not a rumor, the rule was reported as passing at an AKC meeting. If I remember correctly it was 2 years & you are correct regarding what it was done for but it was another case of throwing out the baby in the bath water (pun intended). Thank goodness it only lasted about a year, or possibly less, but it was there at a time that some of us got caught by it.

Other than that I strongly agree with the statements made.


 
Posted By: Wayne Peterson

Posted On: 9 days ago
Views: 322
 
Which class should winners come from?

Although I can not speak for all, but as I judge, I believe most judges strive to reward the best dog. The class the dog was entered in does not factor into the final decision. In fact, I heard of a bitch winning a 5 point specialty-major from the novice class.
In the late 80's a rumor was buzzing around that AKC was implementing a new rule: A dog must be awarded its second major after a certian age to achieve a championship. I believe it was 18 months. If memory serves me corretly, AKC was targeting the dogs with breed standards that included size disqualifications (height, weight). Too many dogs would finish at an early age, and then become over-sized when they matured. I don't believe the intent of the proposal included dogs that "fell-apart" after a certain age.


 
Posted By: Chantel O. Johnson

Posted On: Sep 15
Views: 786
 
Open Classes Not A "Catchall"

John wrote:
"the open classes are nothing more than the "catchall" for the hard-to-finish stammering along with a big wish list."

Zee....you beat me to it on that statement. I agree with you on that quote not being fact. Having shown and major pointed puppies from the 6 through 12 month old classes, I still do not think that the Open Classes are simply a dumping ground for dogs who could not 'cut it' in the baby classes. Due to personal reasons I have had dogs who I couldn't get into the ring until they were well past puppyhood. They finished from the Open Classes. Some dogs are simply not 'puppy winners'.....maybe they don't have the 'cute factor'. Those dogs may mature and be 'ready' to be competitive when they are fully mature adults. So you show them in the Open Classes. Also, perhaps some breeders can't afford to spend a lot of money showing a puppy who may or may not turn out for what they desire in their breeding program so they wait until the dog is past puppy to begin showing. A dog showing in the Open Classes may have just begun its showing career. Maybe it is an import? Not all dogs competing in the Open Classes are there because they have been dragged around for years trying to finish.

To answer the poll topic....the judge should choose the best representative of the breed on the given day no matter which class it is being shown in that day.


 
Posted By: Zee

Posted On: Sep 14
Views: 823
 
Awarding puppies

A judge is suppose to judge what they feel is the best dog on that day no matter if it is a puppy, adolescent or adult. Nothing more, nothing less.

It is the BREEDERS decision and choice, and one they have to live with and possibly answer to, if the dog 'falls apart' after the age of 2 and is still bred.

To me if you dog 'falls apart' at the age of 2 then you need to re-eval your breeding program and the lines you are dealing with.

And a note to the comment about the dogs in the Open classes. There is nothing wrong with this class, it is not a 'leftover' class for those that are desperate for the points. I have known many a dog that doesn't start competing till they are older, by the choice of the breeder/owner/handler, whatever might be the case. Also some dogs might not 'come into' themselves and look their best till they are much older, does that mean they are desperate? Nope, it just means that that particular line matures differently than the next.


 
Posted By: Sean

Posted On: Sep 14
Views: 884
 
Puppy Majors

The only thing I see happening with any requirement to wait till the age of 2 yrs to finish is more people breeding unfinished dogs.

They count towards a major therefore they should have just as much of a chance at one IMO. I agree with everyone else. The best on that day... period. It is not the judges job to become a "psychic" or become "clairvoyant"

However, I was told by a breeder judge once... (Paraphrasing not exact word for word)

Only Breeder Judges should put up young puppies because they are more apt to know how a puppy will grow and what he/she will grow out of, than an all rounder.








 
Posted By: Johnzer

Posted On: Sep 14
Views: 894
 
Major after 2 years

How about making it where the puppy has to get its last major after the age of two, judges should still pick the best dog or pup in the ring, and if the pup has its majors, thats why we have a reserve, the points go to the reserve winner ...


 
Posted By: Scot Billings

Posted On: Sep 14
Views: 937
 
Puppy Majors

I don't know of a time that AKC ever explained the reason for a new rule so I can't imagine why they instituted this rule. I do know that it was in effect while we were campaigning a puppy bitch so it may have been for just the one year. I think it was set to say that a puppy could not receive it's second major & the wording probably covered only 6 to 12 months since those are the "puppy" class limits. All I do know is that the effect was that a puppy could not get more than 2 points at a time. The other thing is that this puppy bitch received her last BISS from the Veteran Classes, indicating that she had not fallen apart too much.


 
Posted By: Kim

Posted On: Sep 13
Views: 960
 
Awarding Puppies

Scot: How long did the trial run last in the late 80's? And what was the stated purpose of the trial per AKC if you can remember?



 
Posted By: Scot Billings

Posted On: Sep 13
Views: 1029
 
Major after 2 years

Sorry, the "mid 90's" should have been "mid 80's". Specifically '87 if my memory is correct.


 
Posted By: Scot Billings

Posted On: Sep 13
Views: 1034
 
Major after 2 years

It is interesting that Ray put the page "How The Numbers Have Changed" at the same time as this question. As I stated before, AKC tried the "major after 2 years" in the mid '90s & it was not received well at all because it meant that a puppy had trouble getting any majors. Looking at the "Numbers" on the "Changed" page you will notice that there was a large increase in shows & dogs shown thru '99 - total 3362 shows with 1,533,166 dogs. In '01 the shows increased but the dogs didn't -3511 shows with 1,525,054 dogs. Now think of what is going to happen by making a "puppy" wait until it is 2 before it can get a major. People will soon not enter puppies in a Specialty, except the sweeps. When a puppy entry is sent for a distant show & it ends up a major people will refuse to travel that far for nothing, which BTW will break the major. I have a feeling that AKC was inundated with complaints that showing a puppy had become a waste of time. The big thing is that you are talking about changing ALL breeds for what you see as a problem in Great Danes. Back when there were "Lines", which came about thru line-breeding, there was seldom a problem with puppies falling apart when they reached adulthood. Now that many people breed with no idea of the result of the MIX they are planning because they refuse to read pedigrees or line-breed it apparently is a major problem to be corrected by changing the way show points are determined. It would be different if this hadn't been already tried & failed.


 
Posted By: Betsy

Posted On: Sep 13
Views: 1037
 
Re''Four , ten, twenty" is NOT the rule of thumb.

Do you really think anyone is going to post the the puppies who finished at an early age, but turned out less than desireable, nor made a contribution to a breeding program?

I think all the posts here agree that the judge IS supposed pick the best dog, in his opinion, regardless of age.





 
Posted By: John

Posted On: Sep 13
Views: 1088
 
''Four , ten, twenty" is NOT the rule of thumb.

Please, it's simple.............the judge doesn't guess the past or the future. His one job is to see to it the best dog wins.

Who are all these puppies that win from the puppy class and completely fall apart ranking them BELOW a champion in the end?
For those, the breeders time would be better spent taking a serious look at their breeding programs instead of criticizing the judge or the system.
At this point in Great Danes, at many shows, the open classes are nothing more than the "catchall" for the hard-to-finish stammering along with a big wish list.


 
Posted By: anonymous

Posted On: Sep 13
Views: 1090
 
puppy awards

Four top winning and/or top producing Danes who finished from the puppy class, some having won BOBs/Specialties/Group Firsts/Best IN Show under age one year are: Ch. Reggen's Madas'L Of Marydane, Ch. BMW Bull Lea, Ch. Rojon's Rumor Has It and Ch. Maitau's Eye Candy v MJM, just to name a few.

... ''Four , ten, twenty" is NOT the rule of thumb. You never hear of the ones that finish ( or win the futurity for that matter) that DONT turn out......too numerous to name. That is not the issue here. Judges cannot think of whether a puppy will or will not turn out down the road or even if he/she is familiar with the pedigree. But being so many do fall apart it is well worth the wait for a required major after the age of 18 mos.


 
Posted By: John

Posted On: Sep 13
Views: 1174
 
Just to name a few........

Four top winning and/or top producing Danes who finished from the puppy class, some having won BOBs/Specialties/Group Firsts/Best IN Show under age one year are: Ch. Reggen's Madas'L Of Marydane, Ch. BMW Bull Lea, Ch. Rojon's Rumor Has It and Ch. Maitau's Eye Candy v MJM, just to name a few.
So, not so quick to say they never turn out. These are just a few, there are many, many others who went on to become quite successful.
I think most are worthy. In this breed, the judge often has to go to the back of the line in winners to find one worthy to put up.
Actually, in Great Danes, the judge needs the puppies.


 
Posted By: Scot Billings

Posted On: Sep 13
Views: 1184
 
Trial Run

AKC did have a trial run in the mid '80s & the effect was that puppies didn't have much of a chance at even their first major because the judge had no idea whether it was their first or second so they were passed with a reserve or withheld the BOW if the opposite sex had a major. Yes, many times the puppy doesn't retain it's good structure, but just as many times the 2 year old doesn't keep it much longer either.


 
Posted By: Kim

Posted On: Sep 12
Views: 1213
 
Awarding Puppies

Certainly it would be educational if the AKC initiated even a "trial run" of, say, 5 years (or whatever deemed adequately long enough to obtain measurable results) with such a rule to see if it would make a significant impact on the quality of our breed (or not).


 
Posted By: GMJ

Posted On: Sep 12
Views: 1255
 
puppy

Many rush to finish a puppy out of the ''puppy classes'' thinking this is a feather in their caps ....many times , only to find out down the road the same puppy has totally fallen apart. Embarrassed , they proceed to use it in their breeding program because it is a ''champion'' ??
This being said I do feel a judge must judge the best dog on a particular day whether it be a puppy or adult. Yet it would serve our breeds' purpose to require one major after the age of 2 .


 
Posted By: anonymous

Posted On: Sep 12
Views: 1261
 
puppy

Sometimes the puppy is the VERY best and according to the Standard , stands out like a sore thumb...BUT I definitely feel in relationship to the growth of our breed ; one major should be attained after 12 -15 mos. as many do tend to fall apart .


 
Posted By: kitty perkins

Posted On: Sep 12
Views: 1271
 
puppy awards

I think the judges should judge all according to the standard whether it be a puppy or an adult. The award should be given to the best example of the breed in the ring on that day, regardless of age.


 
Posted By: kimbelry Hall

Posted On: Sep 12
Views: 1335
 
Awards for pups

I agree, the judge should always pick the best dog regardless of age. If looking for a stud dog however, I would look for one who proved himself over and over not just have CH attached to his name. Doesn't have to be alot of extra wins but a BoB after the age of 2 would help. many more factors go into choosing a stud dog but this would be one factor for me.


 
Posted By: Scot Billings

Posted On: Sep 12
Views: 1344
 
Puppy Majors

Re: the statement: "I think it should be required that a dog/bitch have one major obtained after the age of 2 before getting it's CH." I think it would be an idea to approach AKC with the idea & see if they want to use that AGAIN.
It is interesting that, seemingly, no canine falls apart AFTER they are 2. The last time that rule was used it meant that NO puppy was apt to get a major since the judges have no idea whether it is the 1st or 2nd. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!


 
Posted By: Anonymous

Posted On: Sep 11
Views: 1354
 
Puppies

I always think the judge should pick the best dog...regardless of age. That being said though, I think it should be required that a dog/bitch have one major obtained after the age of 2 before getting it's CH. It's the 'end product' that counts when considering breeding stock. A gorgeous puppy is not necessarily a gorgeous adult...


 
Posted By: Kim

Posted On: Sep 11
Views: 1368
 
Awarding Puppies

Speaking for myself as a breeder and exhibitor, I like to get my puppies out early (usually in 6-9, regardless if the puppy is really competitive at that time) to gain that very important "early" ring experience and socialization...this is a worthwhile investment of my time and money in the future of (what I might consider at the time) a promising puppy... even if eventually that should turn out not to be the case for whatever reason.

With that being said and since puppies 6 months and older are eligible to compete for points, why would any prudent judge want to reward the inferior quality older animal because of the age of the more superior puppy (if that should be the case on that day)? That simply does not make sense to me. The judge cannot possibly see into the future and judge the future quality (or not) of the puppy.




 
Posted By: Betsy Phelan

Posted On: Sep 11
Views: 1493
 
Awards to Puppies

Age of the entry should not influence a judge's decision. The judge should pick the exhibit he likes the best that day. As a serious breeder and campaigner, I don't get in any hurry to finish a puppy. I have seen some beautiful champion puppies that mature to be "pets" and these should not be used in a breeding program. You've wasted precious time and money that could have been directed elsewhere.


 
Posted By: Scot Billings

Posted On: Sep 11
Views: 1551
 
Awards to puppies

I think that the key to the answer lies in the end of the question "when it is deserving of the award". I have never thought that age, young or old, had any bearing on Winners or any other award. If it is, in the judges mind, the best example on that day it then follows that the award should be given. That was why I didn't agree when the AKC passed the rule about not awarding the second major to a puppy. That goodness it only lasted for a short time but that was a time that we were campaigning a puppy bitch.


 
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